Zorg wrote:@mickylove
Have you even tried the simulator? Why to increase these values? Are there any specific reasons?

Yes I picked up a typo u fix it and post on my post lol. And u have answered a question with a question, u said ur open about changing rf on lgs I am asking if ur open about possibly changing the shield values if u increase lgs shields to (base value) 1000 u make lgs stronger without the need to rely on rf to much given that even tho rf could be 15 (-1 has its going to nerfed) its by chance u get rf and even higher chance u get the full rf available rips shields are 50,000 (base value) to lgs (base value) 700 and if take in attack values rips (base value)200,000 to lgs (base value)2000 so the ur New battle engine make lgs very weak against a ship it was put in to game to fight

You are still commenting like LGs are weak. Still LGs beat RIP and RIPs beat everything else. How is that weak?
I will rephrase my question, have you checked the simulator today, after my today's post?

yes.., used your post..., link...
and simmed 30 LG to 1 rip...
I didnt try other combos..
Just was trying to see if 30 LG's beat 1 Rip....
so..,
all at my WSA... 19..., and Plasma 17...
I lost complete LG fleets 3 times..
and had 2 ties... losing 16 LG...
and that was your post with link after the fix..
If you telling me LG"s are now stronger than before... ALL good...
the problem...
If they weaker.. I and most others will stop using them..
as they would have lost their useability...
I didnt try any other tests..

Zorg wrote:You are still commenting like LGs are weak. Still LGs beat RIP and RIPs beat everything else. How is that weak?
I will rephrase my question, have you checked the simulator today, after my today's post?

Yes I have and I will maintain my views in my post lgs are weaker in the battle engine and battlecruisers are weaker too some ships have lost some like bombers have increased their power with the new engine in the stackvstack engine the unbalanced of ships wsa was offset by haveing large numbers in the stacks with the new battle engine the ships wsa have more importance just has much as which ship rfs for and against. Zorg sim bombers v battlecruisers. Bcs at base value weapons 700 shields 400 armour 7,000. Bombers weapons 1000 shields 500 armour7,500 both don't have rf against eachother so a ship (bombers) billed as ship to attack planetary defenses kills a ship (battlecruisers) billed as ship that attacks incoming fleets , don't get wrong I do like the battle engine but it should work in a way that allows us to use fighting ships for fighting ships

Zorg wrote:
@Pulsar
My tests are contradicting your statement that LGs are weak. What numbers have you used? Have you used even numbers at both sides? Your post does not specify and if you do not use even sides you cannot make safe assumptions. One easy way to do this, is to use same fleets at both sides and only give LGs to one side and RIPs to another. (since you are checking Lunars). I don't get your example either, if you need more LGs in Xtreme than with this engine,then how exactly LGs are weaker?

Sorry Zorg, I misworded the post you were referring to, and said new XTREME engine when I was referring the new engine just implemented in MASSACRE, understandably leading to confusion.

The problem does not look like it is near as bad as I thought it was at the time of my last post. I apologize for that too. But I also maintain that LGs are still slightly weaker. Maybe there are new ship/fodder combinations that could help mitigate this... but I personally don't think any weakening in LGs is a good idea.

For clarification, what I did was plug in a mixed fleet in the defender slot, and then sim lgs in the attackers slot to see how many I used to take them out. This was meant to simulate a more realistic sort of battle a fleeter might encounter while hunting. For example, I entered 10k LFs, 1k BS, 3k probes, 1k dessies, 50 RIPS, 10k BCs, 5k LGs, 100 ECs and 30 ERs into the defender slots of both the new Engine V2.0 simulator and the old Battle Engine 1.1 simulator. I used WSAP of 20/20/20/15. I then ran sims of LGs and probes used for fodder against the defending fleet.

If you enter the values above in the defender's slots, and then enter something like 50k probes and 80k LGs into the attacker's slots and compare the results of both engines, the relative weakness of LGs in the new sim should become apparent. When I ran this sim in the Battle Engine 1.1 Sim, more than 9 times out of 10 I only lost probes. When I ran the same numbers in the new Engine V2.0 Sim, pretty much every time I would lose between 500 and 3000 LGs in addition to the probes.

The numbers I used were arbitrary; just examples meant to illustrate a theoretical mixed fleet that could be encountered while hunting, and a theoretical combination of LGs and fodder that could be sent.

I hope this illustrates what I mean when I say LGs still seem weaker. Sorry if this post still doesn't make things completely clear. Thanks for looking into this!

........
I've being doing some sims and the engines working just fine, fodder is a bit less effective, but can still soak up excess damage.
Lgs now feel balanced against rips: )!!!
So great job zorg!!!!!
@micky. I can't quite understand what your saying sorry.....

Also dessies and lf do pretty decent rf against lunnies which is good.
Defense does rf now and rips don't instantly slaughter everything as well (also good )
I'm happy with it in it's current state, any other feedback?

Btw pulsar, 40k rips can be defeated by 1 million lgs with 500k small cargoes as fodder: )
that's about 25 lgs per rip.
I'd say that's balanced: P

thats 25 lg's..., and 11,smth k small cargoes.... per rip...
so..,
As long as LG's still have same losses against rips all is good...
Again.., I only have them for Rips..
all other fleet I use BC's cause of deut to fly.., and speed....
so you technical guys are better at this..
I just sim.., look at losses between the 2 engines and get worried..
but by no means anywhere near as technical as to shield values/rf values... etc etc...

Okay, so straights sims of RIP v LG do look good now. Which was the original issue, and I'm really glad to see it has been taken care of.

But, I still worry that mixed fleets will be a bit more difficult to take out cleanly... Something to think about... If there is some way to make fodder more effective again, that would help a lot.

There is: P
Using small cargoes in my sims, in the first round nearly 10 billion + damage dissaperd (fodder took it even though it only had 600 million hp )
u just need to use a lot more ships than before.
What about attacking with a little bit of fodder from all ships?
does separate stacks help instead of one big stack of one ship type?